From Tax Advisor to Business Growth Partner
Jasen Stine: Welcome to Account
Trends everybody. I'm Jason
Stein with Intuit Accountants.
My co-host, David Bernstein, and
I are excited to be with you
every couple of weeks to share
the latest news, interesting
perspectives and hottest trends
in the tax accounting world.
We'll have special guests on the
show to help break these trends
down and give you food for
thought as you find new ways to
deliver for your clients. But,
most importantly, we plan on
having some fun while doing it.
Welcome, All right, welcome back
to Account Trends everybody.
Jason Stein here, your host
along with me, as always. Mr
David Bernstein, How are you
today, sir?
David Bergstein: I'm doing great
today. I played a little
pickleball this morning before I
did any work, and now I'm ready
to talk to you about what I
always talk to you about How
many more chickens have you
added to your nest?
Jasen Stine: Well, in one of
these days, I'm going to unpack
this pickleball game and learn
more about it. As you say, it's
the fastest growing sport in the
world, right?
David Bergstein: You got it.
Even a professional football
player is doing it now.
Jasen Stine: That's interesting.
I'd never heard of it before I
met you. Chicken, yes, chicken
update. So we have a rooster and
we don't want roosters, so we
got to figure out what to do
about that. We've got our big
girls down in the coop and then
we've got the little ones in,
actually like a plate pen type
of setup in the garage, because
they're just finishing
feathering. And last I think it
was earlier this week one of
them started growing and that's
how you have a rooster. So any
advice on handling that I'm open
to it.
David Bergstein: Well, what time
does the rooster start making
noise?
Jasen Stine: Well, what do you
mean In the morning? Yes, yeah,
right now. It's been like way
later after this. Usually they
start making noise when the sun
comes up, right? But we heard
him grow in at like 9 or 10 am,
which is, you know, sun's been
up for several hours by that
point.
David Bergstein: Well, i can't
help you with your roosters, so
let's pass on the roosters and
the chickens.
Jasen Stine: You don't want a
rooster.
David Bergstein: No, i don't
want a rooster, but let me
introduce our first guest. But
somewhere a birdie told me she
might have chicken, so maybe she
has the answer for you.
Jasen Stine: Yes, maybe. Well,
let's find out. Because we have
her here. I'd like to introduce
Tatiana Sawyer, And Tatiana is a
, you know, seasoned expert in
our professional, ceo and
founder of the Bold Method, and
I'm excited to have her here,
tatiana, welcome.
Tatiana Tsoir: Thanks so much,
Jason and David. It's a pleasure
to be here on your show.
Jasen Stine: You want to take my
rooster out of my hands.
Tatiana, I'll fly it down with
it for you.
Tatiana Tsoir: Not really. Ours
is kind of an a-hole a little
bit, attacks everybody and stuff
, so we're not happy with those
either.
David Bergstein: Well, i guess
you know, if you move to Florida
, you don't have to worry about
that. But we brought you on
because you've changed one of
the trends that we've been
following. We're following this
advisory trend all over, and I
actually looked at your website.
You don't even call yourself a
CPA firm. You call yourself an
advisory firm And I looked at
your website and it doesn't talk
about the normal services, the
tax and accounting. It talks,
let's say, tax strategy,
fractional CFO, price psychology
, exit planning, all those great
things that are becoming the
trend of even the big forefarms.
Tell us a little bit about who
you are and what you do.
Tatiana Tsoir: Well, businesses
hire me to double or triple
their profits, using no
advertising strategies, so that
they can scale, become sellable,
sell with no tax and then never
have to work again. That's the
idea. But it takes the full
cycle for a business. I take
them with my one of my books,
right, i take them from the idea
for a business to creating that
business smart and then helping
them grow and scale so that the
business can run like clockwork
. Help them create consistent
and predictable flow of leads,
conversions of those leads, and
then create standard operating
procedures and things like that
and make it sellable. Whether or
not they want to sell it is
another question, but along the
way I also save them money on
tax And then, when they're ready
to sell, i help them sell it
without tax and never have to
work again. And it's been really
powerful for businesses and for
me too.
David Bergstein: That sounds
fantastic. So you work mainly
with businesses? Do you do the
same thing help CPAs understand
this, or so?
Tatiana Tsoir: I do So in order
to work with my firm, you have
to have a business, so I don't
take on once a year clients.
That's number one. There's no
advisory related to that. That's
what's something that's going
to be replaced by AI in the
future, maybe even the nearest
future But and I don't take on
separately individuals that
don't have a business unless
they have a portfolio of
investments. And so, yes,
definitely have to have a
business.
David Bergstein: Jason, what do
you have to say to her? Well,
tell me more about this.
Jasen Stine: No work thing. That
sounds impossible, but
interesting.
Tatiana Tsoir: Well, the idea is
that there are strategies to
build a business that allow you
to not have to spend money on
advertising. I'm personally very
anti-advertising in certain
ways because I've had really bad
experiences advertising, and
when I started doing this
coaching advisory not just tax
advisory, but regular advisory,
business advisory for businesses
what I've noticed was that when
you advertise, you're pitching
100% of people right, but only
about 3 to 7% of them at any
given point in time are actually
ready to buy, or you have to
sell, and so what happens is
that you spend your marketing
budget showing your ads to 100%
of people and only 3% of them
are even ready to buy. So you're
wasting 97% of your money. And
so the idea is to build a
business such that there is
consistent flow of leads and
convergence, so you have a
consistent flow of revenue, and
then optimize operations, cut
costs or optimize processes so
that it's a repeatable process,
and the idea is that, whether
you sell it to a third party or
to your family or employees or
whatever that thing is, then the
proceeds typically get invested
into a trust and deferred sales
trust that you don't pay any
money tax unless you get some
cash out and you invest that
money and you live off of those
investments. maybe start
something else. Maybe you're
involved in that business for a
couple of years to give you some
extra income. maybe you become
a speaker. Whatever that
situation is, you never have to
work again. You can do whatever
you enjoy doing, but you never
have to actually do it.
Jasen Stine: Well, I love that.
I always say, especially to my
kids wealth is about creating
options for yourself, And that's
how you really want to think
about it. Building wealth for
the sake of building wealth
isn't why people do it. It's
having the freedom to choose
your path and have options for
yourself, And that goes
professionally and personally.
So I very much agree with that
philosophy And it's interesting
as you were talking about that.
It sounds a lot like the TikToks
have been coming across these
days, where people are talking
about take your money and put it
in this trust and everything
flows through there. I'd love to
hear more about how you advise
people to do that. That's
interesting Because I think
there's a lot of information,
other people are talking about
it, but just this, really really
high altitude.
Tatiana Tsoir: So, first of all,
i agree with you on the kind of
options, because my actually my
life philosophy is make a
choice today that leaves you a
choice for tomorrow, and so I
think that's very much in line
with what you said. But in terms
of these trusts and the things
like that, typically in order to
set up trust you will need an
attorney, and so for us, as
accountants, it's the idea of in
order for us to make more money
, let's put it, let's make it
simple in order for us to make
more money, and really because
once the client sells, there's
not much money that you can
generate, and so it's
technically for traditional
accountants it's a stopping
point in terms of revenue from
that client. But if you get this
series 65 and then insurance
license, you are able to offer
investment opportunities and be
a part of fractional family
office, for example, which is an
investment firm, and find one
that actually aligns with your
own risk tolerance and things
like that. And then they are the
ones who typically manage that
deferred sales trust. It's a
very specific type of trust
where proceeds from sale are
invested And only if you take
the corpus out. That's when you
get tax on the capital gain, but
corpus is the main amount that
goes into the trust as opposed
to income. So every year your
trust will generate interest,
dividends, capital gains and
things like that And those are
taxable typically. But unless
you touch the corpus which you
shouldn't typically people just
sell and retire and live off of
the earnings and maybe do
speaking and things like that.
But that's the idea behind it in
a nutshell.
Jasen Stine: And the trust owns
all of everything that you have
right.
Tatiana Tsoir: It owns the
business investments. It owns
the proceeds from the business
sale.
David Bergstein: So your assets
from other things are all
separate. This is just taking
the proceeds to make it a
non-taxable event into the trust
.
Tatiana Tsoir: Correct, because
you're really managing the tax
bracket here, because you can
take the money out of the corpus
, but it will just be subject to
tax for that amount, and so you
can kind of control the tax
bracket that you're in, which is
really important.
David Bergstein: Okay, can I hit
you up with a question, since
I'm finding this intriguing as
to what you do? So let's say you
find a typical client comes to
you cause they want to grow
their business. How do you tell
them to get the continuous
amount of leads without paying
for it? Well, you know, to start
them to grow their business,
what do you do to help them?
Tatiana Tsoir: That's a very
good question. I wasn't
expecting it, but it's a very
good question. I think it's
really an important point. So
this is a part of the coaching
that I do with clients, and so
there's a method to it right.
And typically when we work with
clients, we start with something
called a position of marked
dominance, and what that is is
how you stand out. It's actually
a part of my upcoming TEDx as
well. I mentioned that. I call
it a USB. We commonly know it as
a USB unique selling
proposition. I call it a
position of market dominance
just because I want to be
different. But the idea is that
it's how you stand out, how you
show up and stand out in your
own ingenuine way, and for
businesses it has to do with how
you're different from other
brands and what makes raving
fans of your brand. And when you
don't have that USB, that
market position of market
dominance, when you don't have
that that typically looks like
or actually not looks like it
actually becomes a price
competition, and price
competition is always a race to
zero, and so it's a very
important point, and so we start
with that. Then there's a
couple of strategies that come
kind of aligned where, i guess,
coupled with position of market
dominance, such as drip
campaigns, and I'll explain, and
briefly kind of, how that works
. Remember, i mentioned the
buyer's journey, how only three
to 7% of people are in the
buying mode. Well, 93 to 97% of
people are not, and so they're
somewhere else on the journey.
Maybe they are not even aware of
the product, like the tax
planning product, for example.
Right, most people don't even
know that proactive tax advisory
exists. Not, accountants,
people, businesses they don't
even know that you can do
something proactively to reduce
your tax. So that's kind of at
the beginning of this buyer's
journey. But then there's
something like analyzing okay,
who's even offering that? What
are the benefits of buying, what
are the cons of buying, like,
what's involved? And so that's
the 93 to 97% of people. And so
the idea is they have a problem.
They have a problem in their
head that they don't want, and
so we develop with the client.
Typically we develop a solution
to that problem, but we also, in
our marketing materials, we
talk to them addressing that
problem. And I'll give you an
example of how it's not easy as
easy as it sounds to put it
together Accountants, right, the
way we market, we're terrible
at marketing, right, but the
idea is that when we talk to
people, we compete on accurate,
timely, reliable work. But
everybody else does that. How is
that different? How is that
unique? And people don't. Do
they care? They probably care if
it's accurate, but do they
really care? Do they think about
it all the time? Do they not
sleep at night because of that?
No, so we as accounts, we can't,
or struggle, i guess not. Can't
We struggle? thinking like that
consumer, like that business
owner, what is really keeping
them up at night? And that's
definitely not the accuracy of
tax return, it's how much tax
they pay. I mean, that's the
premise of tax proactive, tax
advisory. The premise is that
they want more money in their
bank account. That's what they
want, because that allows them
to have the life that they want.
Jasen Stine: Right, right,
brilliant, and I love that you
brought up tax advisory, because
that's exactly what you've been
talking about. Right? This is
one of many strategies referring
to the trust conversation.
That's one of many strategies
that people can take advantage
of, and so I wanna what you've
really done is you've built your
business around business
coaching and tax advisory right
together, and that's what this
profession is working towards,
the ones that are looking to
what's the next thing, and
that's what David and I talk to
guests about all the time. So I
wanna circle around that, but
one of the things I wanna also
come make sure that we touch on
is I'm remembering your talk at
QuickBooks Connect, and you did
a session on price psychology,
and I know you're an expert in
this space. I'd love for you to
share with our audience some of
those points that you were
making around how people should
be thinking about pricing and
selling their services, and from
the lens of accountants who are
wanting to be like you, right,
who want to all be business
coaches and be tax advisors.
Yeah, yeah.
Tatiana Tsoir: I mean, i got
lucky I don't know what to call
it but I really have been
fortunate in life with teachers
of all kinds, not just educators
by trade but teachers in
general. And about four, five
years ago when I went through a
couple of coaching programs one
was a technical coaching and tax
advisory, what was a business
coaching that allowed me to work
one day a week in the business
off season and things like that.
There was a lot of efficiencies
in automation that we've put
together. But also, at the same
time, i signed up for price
psychology certification and
training And honestly, it blew
my mind. It blew my mind how we
as human beings make decisions
when the price comes into play.
And I've learned a ton. And
because I was also going through
these coachings, i was applying
the price psychology that I was
learning into my packages.
Because in the coaching that
I've signed up for, they were
teaching you or us, i guess to
put together a menu price. Menu
price meaning three options. And
there's psychological reason
for it being three. Right,
because two you're kind of
cornered into a yes or no and
then people end up not choosing.
And then four too much and
people end up not choosing as
well. So three is the optimal
packages. But in that coaching
there wasn't any additional
training on what should be
included, what should be
excluded. So, having taken that
training, i've started putting
it together and I pretty much
finalized my packages in about
two years after that. But the
important thing that I've put
into my packages was meetings
with me, right With client
meetings. So yes, we were doing
the compliance. Yes, we were
doing the bookkeeping. Yes, we
were starting with the tax plan,
with the tax advisory plan, and
yes, there were notices in the
bookkeeping. Yes, there were
notices included or whatever it
was set up in the beginning. But
it made it very clear for me
that I can't. Initially I made
my lowest package once a year
tax returns for business and
personal. But I quickly realized
that it wasn't an option. I had
somebody sign up for that
package and then I realized I
don't really want to do their
stuff because it's a disservice
to them and it's a disservice to
me. So then my firm kind of
graduated to okay, we're not
going to accept once a year
engagements because again, it's
a disservice to them, they don't
get the advisory that they
think they're getting And we
don't get the quality of the
work. I guess, whatever you will
call it to actually feel proud
of what we do. Because, as
accountants, it's important for
us to feel proud for what we've
done and accomplished and do
every day, and so price ecology
has played a huge role in what
I've done and knowing how to
present packages. If it's a
monthly package, that you would
end it in seven, because most
people don't round up sevens but
they do round up nine. So if
you have a package that's 7.99,
most people will quality 800 to
multiply it by 12, and we'll get
the annual fee. But when it's
ending in seven, most people
won't. So they will just think
about it from a perspective of a
monthly cost. And can I afford
it on a monthly basis? If it's a
yes, then we move forward, and
so it's been transformational
for me.
Jasen Stine: And one of the
things that I really loved about
your talk was how you talk
about anchoring your pricing.
Can you share more about that? I
think that's really powerful.
Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, anchors are
one of my favorite topics
anchors and decoys But anchor is
a purely psychological concept
And anchor is a number, is a big
number, and it doesn't even
have to be a price of your
product or a related product. It
can be something completely
unrelated, and I'll give you an
example of that. So let's see,
there was actually an experiment
. There was a study done on a
wheel of fortune that had two
options One had a big number and
the other one was a very small
number, like $68 versus I don't
know 10,000, for example. Right,
and people were randomly asked
to predict the average number of
winning a lottery after they've
spun the wheel, and the results
were such that when those
people who got a bigger number
on the wheel, their numbers were
much higher than others, and
those two things were completely
unrelated to each other. And so
the way it works is, when
another number is mentioned
right before you talk about
price, it makes the price seem
lower. I mean, it could be used
in a manipulative manner, but
the idea here is to show the
value, which is why you see
these stores like whatever big
stores that sell marked down
items previously $497, $95 for
you today, or something like
that And so people look at that
$497 and it sets an anchor in
their brain because it's right
there on the price tag And it's
the same way with services and
accounting fees and everything
else. It's very powerful.
Jasen Stine: And so, using that
psychology, you recommend the
three options. Right, and as
people think about those options
, what are the things that have
gone into how you've set your
three options? Maybe help unpack
that a little bit.
Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, of course.
So the way I present the options
is also important. We always
start with the most expensive
option first, because it sets
the anchor right, and so that's
really important. Also, when you
start a conversation with the
client and you start with the
top one and they say, okay,
there's no need to waste time
talking about the cheaper
options. Why give them ideas
right? The idea behind the three
options is really the supply
and demand curves. The idea is
that your main fee is that
equilibrium right, the
intersection of the supply and
demand curve. But there will
always be people, like me, for
example, who will want the
all-inclusive resort. There will
always be people who want to
work with you in a more involved
way or manner, but they can't
afford it at the moment. But
they know that there's potential
. So having a smaller option,
kind of like an entry point into
your brand, is also important.
And so for my three options, the
way I presented, i present the
most expensive one first, of
course, and then it's also
powerful from a color
perspective, like a head of
professional designer design it,
and there are three sections on
that sheet Three columns for
the packages, but then also
three sections. The first
section is applicable to
everyone. And so the first
package, the lowest package,
includes, for example, irs
notice response, tax preparation
for one business, one personal
tax plan, separately quoted, and
a couple of things like
overnight FedEx delivery, which
nobody really uses anymore for
documents because they're all
paperless, things like that, and
so the person sees that at a
minimum they get these
particular benefits from me,
from my firm. And then in the
second section, the horizontal
section, that's when items only
apply to the elite package and
the medium package, and then
that would include things like
audit support, but not before
reduced rates. It would include
things like reasonable
compensation study every year,
retirement optimization
throughout the year, small
business deductions throughout
the year, optimization of that,
so advisory kind of around that.
And I typically for the second
package I include one call a
month. For the lowest one it's
typically four times a year. So
I typically do a review four
times a year. It's not on
quarterly basis, it's typically
May, september, november and
December, just for the reasons
of tax advisory. And so
typically we meet with the
client who's in the lowest
package four times a year If
they want any additional
services or sessions with me or
quick questions. Typically
that's at a reduced hourly rate
and they prepay for a package of
three hours. But the idea is
that for the second package, the
second package has to be kind
of like a perfect combination of
the benefits and price. So
that's because you will be
selling 60% of that. So more
than half the time you will be
selling that middle package And
it's certainly true in my
practice as well. And so the
second package for me includes
one call a month. So in addition
to report calls a year, it's
one call a month where we
discuss the month, we talk about
their business, taxes and so on
and so forth. And then the top
package is the Noluclusive
Resort And that includes audit
support. So they audit support,
they pay a premium for it. They
pay a premium for reasonable
compensations and things like
that done fairly more often.
Right, we typically meet with
the clients at least two, three
times a month And I support them
with their business, not just
their bookkeeping and taxes and
all of that.
David Bergstein: Let me ask a
question. What do you call your
three different packages? to
start with, What are the you
know?
Tatiana Tsoir: My most basic one
is essential. The next one is,
i believe, bold. I kind of like
the word bold. It holds me to a
higher standard, for myself too.
And then the top package is
elite.
David Bergstein: Okay, that
sounds good. Then I have one
other clarifying question for
those listeners When you say
audit support, are we talking
tax audits or are we talking
accounting audit?
Tatiana Tsoir: Tax audits, not
accounting.
David Bergstein: So listeners
would know that's what you're
talking about. I like the way
you do it, giving people three
choices. I think everyone's come
to the conclusion that three
choices this is the best,
because if they don't go all the
way, they go in the middle and
then you up them somewhere along
the line, and I like the choice
of names that you're utilizing
for them.
Jasen Stine: Yeah and yeah,
getting away from the laundry
list of services right And just
saying that this is you're
getting similar types of
services across the packages,
but this is a much more reduced,
structured, minimal package
than we've got. here's where
we're gonna really kind of help
you grow and take things to the
next level And then here's the
massive. you get the best I can
possibly offer package And, from
what I understand, people do
even buy the elite package right
. Like you mentioned, you're
more of the all inclusive resort
type And so out of the
remaining 40%, how many should
people expect the elite versus
the basic package?
Tatiana Tsoir: I'm definitely
not a hostile type person. Never
have been. It's definitely on
the all inclusive resort or just
a really good deal, but my
experience has been, which is
interesting In my firm I only
have maybe two clients on the
lowest package. Typically people
want the support. The problem
is that all accountants offer
that support. Because what I
found starting to work with
business owners as coaching
clients right. We would meet
once a month. We would meet
talking about their business in
the month that closed kind of
what the numbers are, what the
trends are and things like that.
But if there is another meeting
a month and some clients have
three, four meetings a month we
talk about other things. And so
what I've noticed is that people
started being more open and
brave to ask questions that they
would typically never ask
because they would be ashamed
And shame is a very powerful
emotion Ashamed to ask questions
that they feel they should have
known the answers to. And they
started asking these questions
and that's been really powerful
for them. And so I have quite a
few elite clients and only one
or two essential, which is the
basic package. Basically that's
just how it's been. And people
love the protection for audit
that costs money because an
audit could be anywhere from
four to 12 to $15,000 to take
you through an audit and it
takes sometimes years And paying
a premium on having that
protection is something that
people love.
Jasen Stine: Yeah, that's
amazing. So can you talk more
about, like, how do you
cultivate your clients and
explain the value of these
services, get them to sign on
the dotted line, right? And then
I'd like to lead that into
lessons learned over the,
because you touched on, you've
learned certain things over the
period of doing this. I'd love
to unpack that more, but let's
start with because that's
something I think people
struggle with a lot They don't
even feel confident that they
can put these. They can put the
packages together, maybe, but
like and then how do I sit down
with somebody and sell them on
it, right?
Tatiana Tsoir: What I found,
which is very interesting and
actually, if you ask me, a
little bizarre. But what I found
is that when you present
packages to people, when you
have gone through the tax
advisory process right, you've
developed a plan, you have
implemented it or you're about
to implement, they're signing in
the dotted line for the tax
plan. Then you start talking
about well, you know, and
typically like if you hire kids
or if you do the Augusta rule,
renting, you know, your own home
to your business or whatever
typically there is money trail
and paper trail that's involved.
You have to have a lease, you
have to have a board of
directors meeting kind of set up
, and preferably I prefer to do
that every month and sometimes
every quarter, depending on a
client. But there is some work
that needs to be done after
we've implemented so that you
can continue getting your
savings right every year. And so
typically you know, with the
way I start with clients, is the
tax advisory part. You don't
have to leave your current
accountant. We can. This is a
standalone service. We can do
this with you, for you, and then
you can go back to your
accountant and get them to do
your taxes, which would be an
ideal situation. The problem is
they all want to stay because,
after you have generated so much
money for them, they're like I
don't want to go back, i never
want to go back again, and so,
but initially they were
protective of the accountant,
which is great. But the idea is
that, like I'll give you an
example, the following things
are included in every package
that I sell right Tax reduction
strategy plan one time fee,
separately stated, really
doesn't mean anything, but takes
up a line and has a check mark
next to it Very powerful from a
psychology perspective. Advanced
tax plan ongoing maintenance.
What that means is in my monthly
packages there is a separate
fee for doing all that paper
trail and money trail, because
sometimes we do the account
transfers between account
transfers for the client and
things like that. So let's say,
if they practice, i don't know
profit first. Sometimes we
support that, and a part of the
ongoing tax plan maintenance
includes transferring money for
rent, which reminds me I have to
do some for a few clients this
month. Also included in every
package business tax filing for
one business and one state
Personal tax filing one, so for
one family. You know, if there
are two partners and they each
need one, then there's going to
be an additional charge Notive
response IRS and state. And then
small business tax deduction
optimization Basically reviewing
your books when I'm preparing
your tax returns to make sure
that we've maximized your
results for that year. So this
is something that everybody can
do. It's something that we
already do. We just don't charge
enough for it. And so I think
that's a starting point, because
it sounds overwhelming. But the
reality the bizarre reality, is
that when I talk to clients and
I show them my packages which I
typically don't even show them
I typically start talking about
the most expensive package. The
question is not whether they're
buying or not. The question is
which package should I choose?
That's how it's been. And so
when you know what you're
offering and what you're willing
to take on or not take on
because a lot of accountants are
just like taking everything
that's coming through the door
and then doing a lot of work for
very little money When you know
exactly what you're offering
and what you are charging,
that's when it becomes powerful.
And another thing is in a
conversation and I remember so
this is something that I've
learned from price psychology
back in the day if at any point
you have a conversation with a
client who says this is
expensive, it means that you
failed to communicate your value
. That means you didn't give
them enough information to show
how valuable you are, so it's on
you really.
David Bergstein: Right. I like
that. You're selling value all
throughout and they understand
it. There's no problem getting a
commitment.
Jasen Stine: Yeah Right. And
when you're talking about saving
them tens of thousands of
dollars in taxes, that's a
pretty valuable thing. So,
people, i know that all aligns
with our studies, even the three
options. We talk about the same
thing when we're doing
education or pricing. And I
loved your story about. You
mentioned it. I don't know if
you thought, if you extrapolate
this in your mind the same way,
but you talked about clients
that come to you and you tell
them hey, go ahead and go back
to your accountant, have the
taxes done, we'll just do the
advisory stuff together. And
then all of a sudden, they're
like I don't want to go back to
my accountant, even though they
may have loved them before they
met you. And I think that's
really important for people to
hear, because those firms that
are not doing this, that's
what's going to happen to your
clients. They're going to find
somebody that does realize
that's more valuable and then
they're just going to quietly
disappear. And so it's critical
that every firm that's serious
about their future as a firm and
attracting higher value clients
that they invest in, create the
capacity in the firm first, so
that you can focus on advisory
services.
Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, i think the
story you're referring to is a
story of a client of mine. I
think I named him Tony I don't
remember. I renamed him so that
nobody obviously can connect the
dots But the client it's a
great example. Actually, i've
known the guy since 2009, maybe
so 14 years now, and up until
2018, i've been asking for his
tax business And the good thing
is he never gave it to me,
because then I sold him a tax
plan. But the idea is that at
the end of 2018, i was already
going for the tax proactive tax
advisory training And so I was
like, listen, let's take a look
at what you've got. And what we
found was that not only did we
make some changes for 2018, but
we also I looked at 2017 and I
looked at the books, because I
was a bookkeeper. First I looked
at the books and I noticed that
there was a chunk of income I
think it was 300 something
thousands of income that came as
one chunk. So I asked my client
about it and he said well, this
was carried interest. And if
you don't know, what carried
interest is basically oftentimes
in real estate, when there is
real estate sales, there are
real estate partnerships,
investment partnerships that
invest in a big deal, a bunch of
apartments or a bunch of
townhouses or whatever. They
basically, let's say, renovate
them a little bit, hold them,
make money on them, and then
they sell them at a gain.
There's usually for the finder
of such a deal, there's usually
a carried interest. So if we
sell it for 25% more, you get I
don't know 3% of the deal or
whatever of the sales price,
whatever that set up is. And so
carried interest actually is a
capital gain, which means that
it's taxed at a lower rate. And
so for 2017, this particular
client who was so in love with
his prior accountant, he was
like he gives me a good deal on
taxes and all of that And I'm
like that's fine, that's totally
fine, i don't compete on price,
and so it was always very, you
know, bolstering that sense. But
after I found this, he was like
, oh my God. So the bookkeeper
didn't know, didn't post it as a
separate type of income. The
accountant's never looked,
because they do 4, 500, 1500 tax
returns I don't know how many
returns they do And so they
never looked. They never. And so
this guy paid, overpaid, like
50 or $60,000 just in federal
tax alone for that year. So
we've amended their return,
we've got him some savings back.
But after that he was like I'm
never doing anything without
asking you.
Jasen Stine: That's the real
deal right there. That's where
we want to be with clients,
right.
David Bergstein: Yeah, and you
set it up front. Also, you don't
want the once a year client
because you're doing them a
disservice. And when you get
into advisory service whether
it's quarterly, semi-annually,
monthly, whatever it changes the
relationship between you and
your client. You know a lot of
people can learn a lot from
listening to this and what
you've done in the past. I think
you're spreading the word with
your books And you do lectures
also on the side.
Jasen Stine: Yeah, i was going
to save that for last because I
wanted to unpack learnings, But
since you brought it up, David
yeah, Tatiana, we're noticing
that you've got a couple of
books with your name on it there
. Tell us about what inspired
those, what's in it, and I'm
sure people would love to
continue to learn from you by
going out and getting those
books. Stay tuned and get them.
Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, the books
are available on Amazon And, of
course and if you do buy it,
please leave a review It makes
the author's life much so much
better and brighter. But the
first book, dream Bowl, start
Smart, was really inspired by
working with small businesses
for 15 years. I mean, it's
actually 18 years this year, so
we're talking three, four years
ago, and that's about the time
when I decided to stop working
with startups, and the reason is
that, yes, they need help, yes,
we're probably the best people
to provide it, but they often
can't afford us, and so, unless
they're funded startups. And so
then I started working with
existing businesses, which is
where there's huge impacts in
terms of dollars, and what I've
noticed is that I noticed that I
was catching myself thinking if
only they could do this better,
if only somebody told them in
the beginning to do this better
or that better, and that's kind
of what inspired that book. That
book is for someone who has a
business idea and cannot afford
to fail, so it's a roadmap on
money, numbers and taxes in
plain English, essentially, and
so it's basically a how-to book.
Then the second book owner of a
CEO. This is less of a personal
book, meaning that in Dream
Bowl Start Smart. You will find
a lot of stories, personal
client stories, basically 15
years of experience and client
stories in one book. Then the
owner to CEO was a book put
together for using strategies
that I use working with clients
to help them scale. So you
remember, in the beginning I
talked about how I work with
clients to create no advertising
strategies to double triple
your profit. That's the
strategies. There's not a lot of
personal stories in there. It's
more examples and the
strategies and the how-tos, so
really much more as a reference
material, i guess you would call
it very to the point. So there
is about 15 strategies or so
that you can look at and start
trying to do on your own which
you absolutely could do this on
your own And so that's kind of
the idea behind the books And
that was inspired just with the
buy, i guess is the right word
here but inspired by these
strategies that I use in my
everyday business working with
clients, helping them grow, and
honestly it's been
transformational to see
businesses go from 2 million to
30 million in two years, like
I've helped make that happen,
and that is a really good ego
sweetener I guess.
Jasen Stine: Yeah, well, and
it's amazing And it proves right
that that's the potential that
we have in our profession is to
accomplish things like that.
That's amazing, wonderful So
everybody should go buy those
two books, folks, because that
sounds like Tatiana's gonna
teach you exactly how to get to
where she is And she's in quite
the awesome place. Tatiana,
we're coming up on time. Last
two part question What would you
say is your biggest learning
that you've had on your journey
And it could be on your journey
as a whole or just on your
journey in transforming your
firm And what is the biggest
piece of advice that you would
offer those looking to be on the
same journey?
Tatiana Tsoir: I think the
biggest learning for me has been
actually very interesting In
2018, that's when I was pretty
much six years into my own
practice And I was making you
know, barely making enough for
our family. I was, i wanted to
raise my own kids. That was
important for me And I remember
that I came across this tax
advisory training, had a
conversation. I remember
thinking, and then the coaching
as well, and I remember thinking
to myself what could they
possibly teach me? And so very,
very you know, huge ego. Most
accounts have huge egos. We
think we know it all. So my
biggest learning was when I
dropped the know it all. That's
when I've had breakthroughs like
I've never experienced before
in my life. That's when, in
three years going through that
process, i've cut my client list
in half and quadrupled my
revenue. That's where and you
know and I've always liked
learning, because my brain needs
intellectual stimulation, and
that I know that about myself.
And so for me, like I haven't
stopped learning since I now
learning psychology, gestalt
psychology It's a very specific,
emotional and driven Gestalt
psychology that I applied with
my clients. I understand what's
behind what they're saying me,
telling me, and it's just been
really phenomenal once I've
dropped that And since then, you
know, it's actually funny for
me to see when I talk to other
accountants and they tell me
skeptically what could I
possibly teach them Or what can
somebody else possibly teach
them. I remember myself in that
same situation And I just laugh.
There's nothing I can say or do
to change their mind, right?
But in terms of the biggest, the
advice that I would give others
or myself, were you looking to
for me to tell? the advice that
I would tell my younger self, or
advice to others?
Jasen Stine: I think advice to
others based on your experiences
and talking with other people
who are struggling to implement
these types of services and do
this kind of work.
Tatiana Tsoir: I think my advice
would be to get out of the
victim mindset. To get out of
the mindset of this is what
accounting industry is, because
it's no longer that. It's not.
You know, i remember when I was
just starting my first CPA firm
like for tax experience in 2010,
. I remember that I said, well,
if I work longer, monday to
Friday, can I please not come in
on a Saturday? And I was told
by a very senior partner that's
not how things are done in
accounting industry. And I
remember thinking to myself why
not? I'm much more productive if
I. Maybe, on average, people
are less productive, but I
personally am much more
productive, cause by then I've
already been running my own
bookkeeping business And I'm a
very good time manager, and so
that's what I couldn't
understand. But I think in
accounting industry there was a
lot of those things that we
think are normal that actually
aren't normal at all. So I think
my piece of advice would be to
drop all of that, those
preconceived notions about what
accounting industry should be
like, and really think about
would you rather have more
clients at $1,000 a year or
$2,000 a year that bother you
all the time and don't pay for
that quick question, quick
answer type scenario. Or would
you rather have 50 clients, each
of them paying at least $20,000
a year, like it's your choice?
And the thing is that for
clients it's also. It's not just
for us, but it's also for the
clients, all of my clients. They
get at least 30 to $40,000 a
year in tax savings. So their
tax savings working with me, pay
for my fees, pays for itself
And so kind of getting out of
that mindset I think is super
important and that's what I
would advise.
Jasen Stine: Very inspiring.
Thank you, tatiana. And beyond
purchasing your book, how would
you recommend people stay in
touch if they wanna continue
learning from you?
Tatiana Tsoir: Reach out to me
through Instagram. I live on
Instagram when I'm not on calls
or recording podcasts. But DM me
on Instagram and let's talk.
Jasen Stine: Awesome Tatiana's
pleasure having on the show.
I've learned so much from your
experience. Thank you for
sharing.
Tatiana Tsoir: Absolutely. It's
my pleasure to be here. Thank
you.
Jasen Stine: Yes, all right.
Well, that's a wrap for today.
Thanks for listening, until next
time. Bye for now. Thanks for
listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, please follow us on
Apple podcasts or Spotify. If
you wanna learn more about any
of the topics discussed on the
show, visit IntuitAccountantscom
or visit our website at
wwwintuitcom. Account Trends is
produced and edited by Luke
Johnston. Copyright Intuit 2023.
