AccounTrends: The tax and accounting thought leadership podcast

Jasen Stine: Welcome to Account
Trends everybody. I'm Jason

Stein with Intuit Accountants.
My co-host, david Bergstein, and

I are excited to be with you
every couple of weeks to share

the latest news, interesting
perspectives and hottest trends

in the tax accounting world.
We'll have special guests on the

show to help break these trends
down and give you food for

thought as you find new ways to
deliver for your clients and,

most importantly, we plan on
having some fun while doing that

. Welcome, welcome back to
Account Trends everybody. Your

host is here, jason Stein, and
with me is always Mr David

Bergstein, cpa and CITP
AlphabetSoup. How are you today,

sir?

David Bergstein: I'm doing
fantastic today. Life is getting

good here in Florida. We're
running over 90 degrees every

day, so I've got to get up super
early to play pickleball in the

morning.

Jasen Stine: Well, that sounds
fantastic.

David Bergstein: I would talk to
you about pickleball as a sport

, but I know you don't follow
sports.

Jasen Stine: I'm not a big
sports guy.

David Bergstein: Do you do
anything exciting besides the

chickens? How about Mount
Washington? Are you close to

that?

Jasen Stine: I don't know where
Mount Washington is. I'm close

to Mount Rainier and Mount St
Helens. Mount St Helens is

actually closer, okay.

David Bergstein: Well, in the
next couple of weeks I'd like

you to report back on your hike
up Mount Rainier to tell people

what you do.

Jasen Stine: Yes, sir, I will do
that. On today's episode we

interviewed Martin Bissett in
the UK and talked about his

perspective on this profession's
transformation to advisory. I

hate using the word
transformation because that

feels big and scary. But, David,
really powerful insights from

Martin, don't you think?

David Bergstein: I think he has
some real good insight. I'll

agree with it, specifically
around the fact that if you want

to grow your accountancy
business or your accountancy

firm, you got to look at it as a
business and not just a

practice of doing accounting. I
think you made that point about

three or four times. If you want
to grow your practice, think of

it as a business. And how do
you grow a business? And what he

specifically said it's not
about doing compliance work on a

regular basis, Just that
growing your business. That's

bringing the revenue. What do
you think?

Jasen Stine: Well, I 100% agree
with you. I think the other

thing that I loved about it was
Martin got real with us, really

real. His story about his dad
just absolutely heartbreaking.

So I'm excited to share this
episode with our listeners and I

hope everybody enjoys. Welcome
to the show. Thanks for being

here. Thank you for the invite.
Guys, we're going global today.

Folks. Martin is coming to us
live from the UK and we were

talking about his name. So if
you're, tell us again, martin,

if you're American, then it's
Bissett In the UK, it's Bissett

right Other way around.

Martin Bissett: Other way around
. So if it's the UK, it's

Bissett, if it's the US, it's
Bissett. And if you're a member

of one of my speaking audiences
who pays no attention, it's

Malcolm Bishop.

Jasen Stine: Or, if you hate
this episode, it's Jason's time,

right, right. So, martin,
you're the founder of the

Bissett group, and we'll just
say it. I'll just use the UK

pronunciation Tell us about your
organization and what you are

focused on.

Martin Bissett: So there's a
pre-COVID and post-COVID part to

this story. The Bissett group
was originally called the Up

with Spiral Partnership. That
was a consultancy name, and to

suggest to the accountants who
is the client of mine that

working together creates a
mutual up with spiral Simple as

that. However, towards about six
months before COVID, I got a

piece of advice which was
pivotal for me, which was don't

own the horse, martin, own the
race course. And what they were

referring to there is that
whilst I remained a consultant,

I was one of many. Whilst I was
a speaker, I was one of many,

and even whilst I was an author,
I was one of many. But if I

used my influence in order to
influence others and have lots

of pieces of the pie so many
different businesses that serve

the accountants then that would
give me much more influence with

accountants because I would
have a consulting solution, a

software solution, a community
solution, a data solution and so

on. And so, therefore, the
company evolved and it became

less about me and much more
about solutions on offer, and

therefore the name was no longer
appropriate and it changed to

the basic group, as in the basic
group of businesses.

Jasen Stine: Love it, that's
awesome, and so you're on, like

us, you're on a relentless
pursuit to help people implement

these important services and
help clients in a much more

powerful way than this
profession has been focused on,

even across the pond there,
right, this is a global thing,

folks, that this profession has
got to figure out how to

implement services that are
actually helping businesses grow

and succeed, not just be
compliant, stay out of jail. And

so you have a family story,
martin, that I think is worthy

of sharing with our audience.
Would you mind sharing that with

us?

Martin Bissett: Yeah, certainly
would, and you know, the more

audiences I've spoken to, the
more this is an every man story

rather than a me story. It looks
like there's a few people

who've been through this. So I
am the son of a man who was very

successful in business, and my
father became essentially a

victim of his own success, and
his business grew and grew and

his financial literacy did not
grow and grow with it. So as the

business grew, he became
increasingly unable to run it.

And this was happening in the
late 70s, early 80s, in a time

when, from the accounting
professionals standpoint, not

only were accounts not proactive
in educating their, their

clients as to how they could
help them, but they were

proactively banned from doing so
by the regulations of the

governing bodies here in the
United Kingdom at least. So from

a business owners perspective,
there's no help out there for a

business owner who is now sort
of struggling because things are

growing out of control. And so
what happened was was that the

business started to fail and
then continue to fail and went

on a downward spiral, and the
impact the real life impact of

the downward spiral is that
obviously the business failed,

but then, as a result of the
business failing the self esteem

failed because you know he was
the business and he taught that

very personally, as I think
anybody would and stopped

believing in himself and stuff
to think, well, what am I worth?

And because of that his
behavior changed, which meant

that the marriage didn't work
anymore either and that led to

the bottle and that led to,
let's say, his eventual exit

from this plan. So in that
period I grew up. In that period

I was kind of about four, I
don't know four years old when

we start that story and I'm
about 20, no, I'm early on later

30, odd years old when we
finish that story. So it was a

slow, slow but long, progressive
decline, incrementally so,

because each day was tougher
than the last one. Once you

failed. Now, in parallel to this
, I also have the privilege of

being an ambassador for a
financial literacy charity for

young people, and I got invited
to Westminster and the Houses of

Parliament to hear a report
from that charity, to what we

call over here a select
committee, which is the House of

Commons, House of Lords, a
select committee on financial

literacy, and the long and short
of the report was if you want

someone to be financially
literate in their 30s, you've

got to start teaching them when
they're nine, and there is no

room for financial literacy
teaching on the school

curriculum at nine years in the
United Kingdom. So this sort of

reinforced that this is an every
man story. Businesses fail so

often and the question becomes
how many of them could have been

saved with proactive advice
from an accountant? More

specifically, therefore, how
many marriages could have been

saved, how many mortgages could
have been saved, how many homes

could have stayed together? And
the real life impact is huge. So

my story obviously motivates me
, but I'm guessing there's

people listening to this going
yep, me too.

Jasen Stine: Yeah, what a
powerful story, martin. I just

want to really drive home and
this is why we wanted to have

you on the show because this is
precisely when we talk about the

stuff, this high altitude right
, we talk about it in service to

growth and success and
wonderfulness and helping

businesses succeed, but
underneath that, there's a layer

of people's lives are at stake,
right, people's livelihood and

people's lives themselves are
actually tied to financial

literacy in this degree, and
it's just. I don't think we talk

about that enough on a regular
basis.

Martin Bissett: No, we're making
sure that, part oblivious, part

scared of talking about it. But
the thing is that how would a

business owner obtain financial
literacy If they've never run a

forecast in their business, if
they've never run a budget, if

they've never handled a bank
account, if no one's ever told

them that 30% of everything they
earn, at least, is the

government's and not theirs? If
they don't know those simple

principles, who's teaching them?
Well, the most likely teacher

is the one with the financial
intimacy in the business. Who

knows the numbers? Well, the
accountant knows the numbers.

You could make a case for the
bookkeeper knowing the numbers,

but in terms of authority, in
terms of gravitas, in terms of

heft, then generally the
bookkeeper does not carry that

kind of authority in a business.
It's generally the accountant's

CPA that does so. Is it going
to be the financial advisor? No,

is it going to be the enrolled
agent? No. Is it going to be the

bank manager? No, if there is
one, who's it going to be? Is it

management consultant? No, we
don't trust the management

consultant. So who on earth are
we going to trust to tell us how

to handle our money? The
accountant. So the most noble

iteration of a CPA qualification
is to use that technical

ability to transfer knowledge to
a business owner so that they

first of all keep the walls from
the door, then they study the

shit, then they thrive. And
there is nobody in business,

whether it's corporate America
or whether it's UK PLC, there is

nobody better placed to support
a business owner in achieving

their personal professional
aspirations than the accountant.

They follow the book.

Jasen Stine: I say that
constantly.

David Bergstein: You convinced
me. I'm not going to retire. I'm

going back and going to help
more clients, Because I'm in

total agreement that the real
purpose of an accountant is to

offer the advisory services, is
to help the client be more

liquid, solvent, profitable and
attain whatever goal they want

to attain in life, because
everything relates to financial.

When you hit it on the head
because accounting is a process

which is bookkeeping, recording,
sorting and summarizing events

the accounting or trust part
comes down and helping them make

the decisions to use the data.
That's out there. 100% in

agreement with that, Absolutely.

Martin Bissett: I've heard
boards, board of directors,

refer to their accountant as
their comfort blanket Because

after a time they acquire the
knowledge, they know what to do,

but they still want their
validation from mom or dad to

say do this, that's the right
thing to do. Well done, you've

learned, go ahead, just that
validation. I know accountants

who are retained to do nothing
more than to sit in board

meetings and go uh-huh, that's
their entire role. That's their

entire role. I think, where this
goes, guys, and obviously I'll

see where you guys take it but I
think what it comes down to is

this is not a new subject. This
is not even an old subject. When

you uncover the ancient
velocity of Pompeii in Italy,

you also find some paraphernalia
about how accountants should

become advisors at some point.
That's how far we go back with

this. The issue becomes a
distinction in the mind of the

accountant as to who they are.
They are either an accounting

practitioner with an accounting
practice still practicing I

haven't got a good at it yet or
they are an accounting business.

I would suggest to the
listeners there is a distinction

to be made in their own minds
Are you running an accounting

practice, are you running an
accounting business? Because

they ain't the same thing.

Jasen Stine: I was just going to
get into that. Unpack that some

more, Martin. What does that
mean exactly?

Martin Bissett: Rather than me
do it. As I say, I have an

accounting community here in the
UK and I asked the question of

them. I said if you make, if you
make a distinction between an

accounting practice and an
accounting business, what are

the key differences? Here's what
the members of my community

said. I'm quoting directly here,
guys. I'm not paraphrasing or

anything. Here's what they've
said. One of our members, who

are named called Haider, says
it's a distinction I only

considered shortly after joining
this group. It's shifted by

mindset in a positive way. For
me, the distinction is in the

priorities of the owner, that's,
the owner of the accounting

firm, not the owner of the
client. Do you want to play

accountants or do you want to
maximize earning potential? I'll

give that one again Do you want
to play accountants or do you

want to maximize earning
potential? An accounting

practice, says Haider, will
conform to conventional

processes and prioritize
perception of them as

accountants. I am an accountant.
Look at me. Professional

qualification, respect me, give
me validation. That sort of

thing. Business is willing to
break the mold in pursuit of

profit. Now I have other
comments to give you here, guys,

but I'll break there. There's
just one particular member's

feedback on this particular
topic.

David Bergstein: My question
would be who's profit?

Martin Bissett: Right. So in
that answer they're saying their

own, but of course us three
would say mutual benefit, right

by helping them. You do good by
doing right, so we help the

client to prosper. The
improvement created is the value

that we have to them, the
improvement we create, and we

are then compensated eventually
for that improvement created

within the business 100% agree.

David Bergstein: If the client's
happy and the client's

successful, you'll end up with
receiving higher compensation

because you're rendering higher
value services to help them.

Martin Bissett: And that removes
price sensitivity, because

we're no longer comparing
commodity purchase with

commodity purchase. That account
, this account, it's all the

same. I've got to be compliant
by law. Who cares what I pick?

Now we're talking on a very
different scale. Now we're

saying this one will make me
compliant by law, this one will

get me closer to the beach house
in Maui.

David Bergstein: So how do you
teach your accountants to make

that change? They got all these
accountants out there, hundreds

of thousands, millions of them
doing compliance work. How do

you help them make that
transition?

Jasen Stine: Let me build on
that for a second. First too,

martin, because you said it in a
very interesting way or that

comment from your community
member around being shameless

about profit as it relates to
the accounting business, and I

think there's a bit of a stigma
around that and accountants who

this is all about financial
literacy and having a healthy

relationship with money still
struggle with this mindset of I

don't want to price gouge my
clients and they're not going to

pay this much money. And I am
helping them, I am giving them

advice, I am doing the things
that you're talking about,

martin, but why is it important
to focus on that profit aspect?

Martin Bissett: Because profit
is where the money comes from.

So if you don't make a profit,
you are not able to create any

discretionary time because
you're always chasing a deadline

. So if you're not able to
create discretionary time,

where's your time coming from to
help the client? So it always

strikes me as an interesting
juxtaposition when we have a

professional trying to cover
their tracks and say, oh, I

couldn't, possibly I'm not in
the business of taking money

from my client, ripping them off
. But you are prepared to work

80 hour weeks, whinge about your
clients, whinge about how price

sensitive they are and tell
everybody how much you hate your

job. Okay, now, why would I
take advice from a guy who does

that for a living? So, going
back to David's question, david

said how do you teach
accountants that? Well, the old

way, david, was to go on stage
around the world for many years

of my life and for everything I
said to be forgotten before I

finished. That was the old way.
The new way is to disseminate

information through social proof
in communities. And it doesn't

come from me. The more I preach
it, the less effective it is,

the more I demonstrate it and am
an avatar for it, and my

colleagues are avatars for it,
and then our members find out

for themselves that that's right
. The word spreads, and the word

spreading from peer to peer is
a lot stronger than the word

spreading from self-appointed
guru to peer.

David Bergstein: So is the more
groups. As soon as the concept

and practice it, they're
spreading the word.

Martin Bissett: Yeah, basically
we can go off South Gordon's

tribes here, the more we can
build tribes that have an avatar

to say are you one of these
that commercially might add a

cancer? Are you desirous to
bring more out of your practice?

Are you desirous to pay more to
your team? Will you get all of

that by helping your clients? So
there's a mutually-improved

society here. Let's get to work.
May I share with you another of

the community's comments,
please. Okay, this one's from

Alan. So we're chatting out to
Alan here, who's the only Alan

in our group, so he'll know who
that is. And he answers the

question that I asked about
counting practice versus

accounting business this way
Practice, he puts in inverted

commas. Business owners have an
inflated sense of self-worth and

want to distinguish themselves
from the unseemly business

owners they serve. Caring
business owners know that that's

nonsense. Interesting Now,
alan's not really shy in sharing

his views.

Jasen Stine: That was pretty
straightforward, there wasn't it

?

Martin Bissett: I saw this
firsthand In November 2001,.

Guys, here in the UK our biggest
governing body, the Institute

of Accountants for England and
Wales they relaxed their

marketing guidelines in their
members' handbook. So what was a

very explicit you cannot go out
and tout the business. I think

of that phrase. Tout the
business Relaxed and it became

everyone do whatever they feel
like, it's fine, just don't push

yourself, just go for it. And
so the floodgates opened at that

point. But accountants still
weren't coming through it

because they were above it. I am
a professional. I don't lower

myself to asking business who do
you think I am? Because

basically no one becomes an
accountant when they want a

career in sales and marketing.
Right, you become an accountant

to avoid a career in sales and
marketing.

David Bergstein: To succeed as
an accountant today, you have to

sell your services, so
everything comes back to sales

and marketing at this point in
time.

Martin Bissett: Yes, so do it.
And I would probably even take

that a step further and say if
you can get past selling and you

can educate your clients so
well that you simply allow them

to buy, how do I get that? How
do I have that story like that?

How do I see that 25% growth
year on year that you gave to

that client? If you educate them
with your stories, you don't

even have to sell. They'll come
to you, right.

Jasen Stine: And so that's the
interesting thing, martin, it's

what we see all the time is this
industry has operated a certain

one for so long and people
don't have to go. I don't think.

As far as I've been around for
my 25 years, I've always heard

accounts that we don't do
marketing, we don't send out

email campaigns, we don't do
stuff because the business just

comes to us. I mean, here in the
state, you can sign out your

door this is I do taxes and
people all line up every January

, february, march, april, and so
they don't have to worry about

that and they're making money,
they're profitable. But there's

a lot of misery that comes with,
as you alluded to earlier, with

80 hour work weeks and just the
drudgery of and the pain that

our pros have been feeling for
years. But there's almost like a

sort of frog and water kind of
syndrome to that. How do we get

past that?

Martin Bissett: Well, that's the
decision of the commercial

minded. Because what you
described there just and I refer

to as RFA, which is recurring
fee apathy. So the business, as

you say, walks in the door and
therefore our living

requirements are met. We have a
pretty nice car and a pretty

nice house and a pretty nice
life oh, pretty nice. And no one

thinks past. Pretty nice, what
about outrageous? What about

extraordinary? What about
exceptional? Oh, pretty nice. So

therefore, two things happen.
The recurring fee that comes in

is outside of the control of the
accounts. They just take the

work off to them. So if a great
client refers a poor client, for

example, they feel obliged to
accept that poor client because

to them all new business is good
business when it's really not.

But they are killing their own
profit margins by accepting that

client. But they got to don't
want to accept the big client.

So that's how you start to hate
your own client base is the

starting to accept work that you
would never have taken on had

they felt like they had a choice
. So in that cycle of recurring

fee apathy, where you're no
longer in control of your growth

and the new client you are
would, you may or may not be the

kind of client you'd love to
look after. That's where things

go wrong, because there's no
time to market, there's no time

to find out what marketing is or
how it works, because you're

chasing deadlines constantly,
but it never seems to occur,

because of that anaesthetic that
the recurring fee provides, to

ever break out and do anything
beyond that. So, in short,

accountants like ambition.

David Bergstein: Well, I hate to
say it, I think that's changing

in the US now, but the people
still need help.

Martin Bissett: I hope so I hope
they change.

David Bergstein: I really hope
they change. And the reason it's

changing but it's not going to
change for everybody is private

equity is coming in to the super
large firms and dividing them,

putting the accounting side on
one side and saying, hey,

they're doing what you're doing.
They're saying does more money

to be made in the consulting
side if you're proactive and

help your clients? And they're
spreading the word, so they're

following what you're saying,
but really it doesn't relate

down yet. And that's where,
coming from the bottom up to

smaller to medium side firms
need what you are saying. They

need to join those communities
and see that there's an

opportunity to help their
clients, which in turn helps

them achieve their dreams.

Martin Bissett: I think it's
spot on, david. We have it here

as well. We have private equity
here as well, and what they're

doing, though, is they're going
to accounting firms and they're

looking at the corporate finance
opportunities not the

compliance opportunities and
they're buying firms with the

compliance work kind of regarded
as a all right work around get

on with it. Or outsourcing
company, get on with it, but

we're going after the corporate
finance. That's where the

profitability is in this firm.
Look at the opportunities in

this top 500 clients here, and
that's where they're going, and

private equity here is building
some nice consolidated models

right now. But the thing is, in
the US is scale. There are more

registered accountants in New
York state than there are in the

United Kingdom, wow, yeah, so
the voice, the message of this

doesn't get through. Yes, and
you've been talking about it for

25 years. So have I, you know,
and we're still knocking on the

door of firms, and I know for my
time in the US I was in a

period in the mid teens of the
2000s I was in your great

country every eight to 12 weeks,
and I learned that in the state

of Pennsylvania, I could be
huge in Philadelphia and

completely unheard of in
Pittsburgh. So if you then

expand that out to get anyone in
Montana to hear from you, you

know you can spend your life on
something. So the message has to

get out another way, because
you just can't do it there isn't

enough time in the day to do it
you have to get the message out

somewhere else For the
practitioners, the cherry

picking practitioners, who can
think this way and go yeah,

that's right, that's what I want
to achieve. I want to achieve

results for my clients, I want a
better life myself. Then

deliver it. You hopefully
harness them and say now go

preach, because then the
missionary force, as I said

previously, is the peers, not
the gurus.

Jasen Stine: Right, yeah, and I,
you know there's there's big

factors that I think are
culminating in our profession

right now that we haven't seen
before. That is starting to

force the hand of a lot of firms
. When we think about technology

and the evolution's there, we
don't even need to get into it,

Right? We've talked about it on
previous episodes and we hear

about it all the time. The way
that technology has changed our

lives over the last 10 to 20
years has been, I mean, just jaw

dropping. And then it continues
to jaw drop with, you know,

generative AI coming out and
things like that. So our lives

are continuing to transform and
these are tools that are making

it easier for us to connect with
each other on a national and

global scale and also to
accomplish work, so that we

don't have to work as hard to
get things done, which is

amazing, Right. And then you
have this sort of staffing. You

know we call it the great
resignation, the staffing crisis

, and you know it's across the
board, but it's indicative of

like the brand that our
profession has carried, where we

haven't been bothering to
listen to this message of why

advisory is so important, et
cetera, et cetera, and continue

to just keep doing that. What
did you call it? The RFA? Yeah,

rfa. Recurring fee at the senior
yeah, just continuing on that

model because it's good enough.
But there, you know, and I guess

being inspired hasn't been
enough, right, and so I love

that we're talking about these
important issues, peeling back

the layers underneath, about how
this is about people's lives

and livelihood, not just success
as a general generic term, but

it also now there's like a
burning platform. You know what

we say in the corporate world
where these elements, you know

you can't keep running a firm
the way that we have been

because you're just going to run
yourself into the ground,

because you can't possibly staff
for it, scale for it grow in

any way, and you're holding back
. I've heard somebody else I

think we had them on the show is
talking about squandering the

opportunity of advisory services
with clients, not just

squandering it for yourself as a
firm owner or a member of a

firm, but as squandering the
opportunity for the client as

well, because they need this
stuff, whether they know it or

not. They don't know where to go
for it and, as you've said, the

accountants are the people that
are the best placed. It's not

just the best place, it's the
center of the universe, right,

yeah?

Martin Bissett: And the problem
that we've got with the whole

evolve or die message is that
the client's been hearing that

for 40 years. There's no future
in compliance work. That was

said about 30 or five years ago.
Yes, there is. We're still here

and I have a book shelf that
says in this hyper-connected

world of ever-changing,
fast-moving technology, you've

got to move the times or pay the
price, because now fax machines

are coming in and these fax
machines are going to

revolutionize everything. Don't
send leftists anymore, it's the

fax. You're going to get left
behind. You're going to get left

behind. The problem is that the
client's work is always

required by law, and technology
can only move as fast as humans

adopt it, and that's why, still
to this day, we don't have

majority cloud adoption in the
US accounting profession or the

UK accounting profession. The
majority is still desktop,

despite what the FinTechs would
have you believe. And to that

end, technology comes screaming
up to the door and then stops

because the human is not ready
yet. So it goes that far. So

what typically happens is that
the bigger clients of the

accounting firm, who are more
switched on, who need more from

the accounting firm, start to
complain of lack of service,

lack of attention, lack of
cuddling perhaps, and they do go

elsewhere and the big 40-gram
client walks out the door and

what the firm typically does is
replaces that with about

10-4-gram clients and just puts
more into the machine to keep

the wheels turning, to keep the
whole thing, and so complains

more about low-margin client
work and how the great clients

aren't out there. Well, yeah,
they are, they're just at. Your

competition Didn't work out on
them well enough Because some

firm somewhere moved with the
times and are up to date and are

in sync with that big client of
yours and reached out and

connected and educated your
client about that which made

them move. But they're the
exception, not the rule. The

rule is those generally doing
compliance work for some general

recurring fees because, hey,
it's easier than going out and

winning business.

Jasen Stine: Yeah, I love your
points about the technology

adoption too. It's, I mean,
that's spot on. I mean we as a

technology company, right, we
see that and it was interesting.

You know we talked about, and I
talked about how COVID right

Changed a lot of that Again
another forcing hand function

that accelerated a trend that
was at play. You know,

videoconferencing and working
remote and all the things that

you know we were forced to do
when the pandemic hit. And it's

interesting because we it
brought a lot of that forward.

But we're still not there
despite that.

Martin Bissett: Right. So this
is something I refer to as the

snapback. So during COVID, what
we saw is a accountant suddenly

deluged with phone calls from
their clients going hell. What

do I do? An accountant's having
to watch the continual

regulation being updated,
updated, updated as to how we

handle a pandemic and all of a
sudden they were in contact with

their clients all the time to
update information, to be there

for disasters, and you started
getting really, really

unself-aware. Comments Like you
know what? We've just gotten so

close to our clients, we really
know what they're trying to

achieve, which is the same as
saying had there not been a

global, unprecedented pandemic
for the last 50 years, we

wouldn't have known what our
clients are trying to achieve

because we wouldn't have got
close to them. It took a

pandemic to move us and I said
are we going to get a snapback

now, as soon as the restrictions
are released and nobody's going

to wear a mask anymore and no
one's going to socially distance

anymore? Are we going to go
back to exactly where we were

least possible line of
resistance, event-driven

reaction, only no productivity
or are we going to learn our

lesson? Is this the final?
Finally, is this the when we

turn the corner as a profession
and we finally go oh, I get it.

Get in front of your clients,
get close to them, find

opportunities, grow the
relationship. Well, I can't talk

about the US because I don't
know what happened in the US,

but I can talk about the UK. The
snapback occurred all right

back to where we were.

Jasen Stine: Oh, you know, I've
seen a lot of that you know, we

talk about and we hear about.
You know firms that are going,

you know kind of going public
and saying, all right, everybody

, you know pandemic's over back
in the office. Everybody back in

the office, right that's the
one we're doing this, for that's

right. That's one of the like,
the symptoms of the snapback

right. We're still struggling to
overcome hourly billing models

right with even the firms of all
sizes.

Martin Bissett: But let's go
there. No one talks value

pricing anymore. Why? Because
the profession can't get their

head around it. Everyone's moved
to subscription pricing. All

your thought leaders now talk
subscription pricing. Why?

Because they can't sell value
pricing to the profession,

because the profession can't get
it. Why can't the profession

get it? Because they ain't
commercially minded Right right

they are. They've invented a job
for themselves and then they've

got too much work so they've
hired some people around them

and it's just kind of going from
there organically. And so

that's why I suggested there
should be a distinction made

between an accounting practice
and accounting business. Because

if you're an accounting
practice and you're listening to

this show, I have some very bad
news and I hope it's not too

pessimistic. But you're kind of
gonna do what you're doing now

until it's time to retire. You
know, the history of my career

now shows you don't generally
change. There isn't really

enough of a pain that occurs in
your life. You're just, you're

close. You're close till it's
time to go, unless some health

scare gets you. But an
accounting business and I wish I

could make this happen, but I
can't it happens individually

when they go. We're doing this
wrong. There's a better way.

There's a better way, those
people who awaken to how it

could be, start building
commercial structure, a

departmental structure, a
commercial structure, start

looking at their pricing, their
profitability, you know, and all

of these things. I'm worried
less about the billable hour,

I'm worried far more about the
value created for the clients

and receiving compensation, fair
compensation, for that. So

basically, we have ourselves
very hesitant to say two tribes,

two clear distinctions. An
accounting practitioner,

technically excellent, will do a
great job, probably not

charging up for it but will not
go beyond what is absolutely

required. And an accounting
business who is your best friend

in business Fullstone.

David Bergstein: I agree we're
going to see that continue.

There are a lot of firms that
are making the transition now

and it's going to take probably
another 30 years before it all

happens. Probably.

Martin Bissett: But honestly,
guys, I don't think I'll be

around to see it. I don't mean
around life-wise, I mean

career-wise. I don't think I'll
see it. In my time I've already

been doing this what 26, how
many years it now is, and the

progress is pretty slow. There's
obviously progress we can point

to, but again, it's exceptions,
it's not rules. Generally, the

only thing that makes an account
change the ones who don't have

that awakening that I just
described is legislative change,

Legislative regulation change.
Sarbanes are actually a great

example. They're in the US, but
you're 93. Things like that

where you have to do something
because it's mandated that you

have to do it now, that
generally gets the account of

profession moving. If it's not
mandated, change doesn't

generally happen.

David Bergstein: I'm going to
give you a thought here that

you're making which doesn't
really relate to this, but it

does. The AICPA is having a
tough time filling the pipeline

in the United States. I think
we're getting more CPAs, or

chartered accounts, outside of
the US as the pipeline is

diminishing in the US, even
though we're going to try and

build it up. We're seeing more
people come into the accounting

profession not as CPAs but as
accountants. If, following your

tribal rule, they're saying,
maybe we'll do some compliance,

but the real value is in helping
our clients. The transition is

coming from those younger people
who are saying you're right,

morton, we need to help our
clients. The best way to run our

business and get our profit
line is to not worry about

compliance and worry about
everything else.

Martin Bissett: Right From your
mouth to God's ear. I hope

that's exactly how it works out.
One thing I've noticed in the

UK is that the audience has
changed. Basically, the audience

used to look like me. It was
middle-aged. It was innocent

although I'm not in one today,
but I am when I'm on a stage.

That's what I looked out on
After COVID, which was the

defining line. All of a sudden
it's young people in hoodies

with beards and stickers on
their laptop and a tattoo sleeve

. It's like okay, okay,
discernible change, actual,

evidential, empirical,
discernible change. Great, great

, great, great great.
Unfortunately, those kids have

been trained by the previous
generation. They're still in the

old ways. They look different
now. They're adopting technology

a lot better, certain cloud
technology a lot better, now for

sure. Are they empathetic,
resonant, proactive, going in

relationships before worrying
about service delivery? No, no,

not yet. Not yet we're still in
service delivery.

Jasen Stine: So to that, Morton,
you've been talking to these

people. You've been talking to
thought leaders, people who are

listening to the show and
hearing what you're saying.

Going, yes, I agree with
everything you're saying, but

what do I do then? How do I look
like this accounting business

that you're describing? What
advice would you give to our

listeners and to anybody who
would ask that question?

Martin Bissett: If you want to
get in shape, find a gym. You go

to a gym. If you want to be a
successful investor, you study

successful investors and you
start by actually making some

effort for yourself and you go
okay, google, tell me about

successful investors. What do I
need to know? Or you read a book

on the subject, or you attend a
class on the subject, or

whatever you're going to do to
obtain the knowledge that you

need. If we have an accounting
practice. Listening to this,

that is an agreement. I'd love
to hear from the ones who aren't

in agreement as well. That's
fun, but there are agreements

saying well, where the hell do I
start? So you start with a

decision. You say, okay, time to
build an accounting business.

Or, to put it even cuter, time
to evolve onto the next stage of

my development, from an
accounting practice to an

accounting business. Right, I
better find some examples of

accounting businesses and find
out how they did it. And if I

can't find that, then I better
ask Jason and David for business

contacts details so I can find
out where to look. Or he can

tell me himself, or I can ask
Jason, or I can ask David, but

it's going to take the
individual to make some effort.

It ain't coming to them and say,
oh, here you are on a plate,

sliced liver and paid for. There
we go, enjoy. They have to go

looking, they have to earn them
right. So, basically where the

starting point for any
individual listening who is of

the same mind as we are in this
conversation is to start the

search and say, okay, I want to
be an accounting business, let

me find an example of an
accounting business to study, or

let me find someone who knows
them, who can show me the ropes.

David Bergstein: So how did they
find you? That's my next

question. So we want to get
learning from you, Martin.

Jasen Stine: Where do we send
them?

Martin Bissett: On LinkedIn is
martinbissett at.

Martinbissettcom or
martinbissettcom, whichever you

prefer.

Jasen Stine: And that's
B-I-S-S-E-T-T two S's, two T's.

Folks, B-I-S-S-E-T-T. Go connect
with Martin, please, everybody,

Learn from him. You've
published, you've mentioned

you're an author. You published
some books on the subject.

Martin. Go read Martin's books,
folks, and I hope that what

we've talked about here today
was helpful and resonates Martin

, what a great conversation. I
thank you so much for bringing

your thoughts to our podcast and
sharing with our listeners.

Martin Bissett: Gentlemen, thank
you for the opportunity. I

appreciate it.

Jasen Stine: Well, that's it,
everybody. Thanks for listening.

Hope you enjoyed the episode.
Until next time. Thanks for

listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, please follow us on

Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If
you want to learn more about any

of the topics discussed on the
show, visit IntuitAccountantscom

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is produced and edited by Luke

Johnston. Copyright Intuit 2023.